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> Down with Warlock!
DeadlyWorkz
post Aug 16 2007, 03:41 PM
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Mad cause Warlock charges for his plugins? Well don't be! I shall be making them all in the next few days or so. No price tags on em either! biggrin.gif

This post has been edited by DeadlyWorkz: Aug 16 2007, 03:50 PM
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AngelicKing
post Aug 16 2007, 06:40 PM
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I don't agree with Warlock's idea about selling his package, but I gotta ask is this legal?

-King-


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Ferre7 is no longer a big idiot
post Aug 16 2007, 07:06 PM
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it's legal as long as he doesn't steal the scripts and call them "his own"

i think it's good to sell scripts, you take so long to make them, you may as well get something in return.
i was auctually takling to him about it one day

Why are u trying to "recreate" "crummy" plugins?

This post has been edited by Ferre7: Aug 16 2007, 06:42 PM


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#define
post Aug 16 2007, 07:21 PM
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QUOTE
I don't agree with Warlock's idea about selling his package, but I gotta ask is this legal?

He is making them himself, nothing wrong with that at all.

QUOTE
Mad cause Warlock charges for his plugins?

If you converted time spent into an hourly wage that was made off of them it would be like child labor in China wages. You talk as if he made a fortune lol
Stealth "charges" for beta, he just calls it a "donation". Is that wrong? Not at all, he probably spent a hell of a lot of time on it.

I think it's funny when people talk about being charged for software or scripts as if they are being ripped off. An average rate for any contract developer is $75 per hour, and it can be a lot more than that depending on what part of the country your in. Software is expensive, these scripts are very cheap.


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AngelicKing
post Aug 16 2007, 07:29 PM
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I've spend hundreds of hours on my scripts and yet I don't charge for them.. thats all I'm saying.

-King-


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#define
post Aug 16 2007, 07:33 PM
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QUOTE(AngelicKing @ Aug 16 2007, 07:29 PM) *

I've spend hundreds of hours on my scripts and yet I don't charge for them.. thats all I'm saying.

-King-

Are you an actual programmer or just learning how to script? That is the main difference.
Meaning you spent many hours just learning how to do it as opposed to spent many hours actually writing code in an efficient manner. I can build a house but it would probably take me 3 years longer than an architect that knows what he is doing when he started.

This post has been edited by #define: Aug 16 2007, 07:36 PM


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Jack
post Aug 16 2007, 09:29 PM
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I didn't pay to use beta...


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riffruff
post Aug 16 2007, 09:39 PM
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QUOTE(AngelicKing @ Aug 16 2007, 08:40 PM) *

I don't agree with Warlock's idea about selling his package, but I gotta ask is this legal?

-King-


Actually, I agree with his idea, and I was planning to do something exactly the same with a few scripts that I'm making the final touches on. Put it this way. Warlock spent hours and hours making these scripts. What is wrong with him charging for them, and not charging much at that!! If you think Warlocks plugins should be free, it's like saying the Starcraft should be free. Warlock is spending hours making plugins, it spend Blizzard hours to make Starcraft, why sell Starcraft and not sell the plugins? Although Starcraft took longer, perhaps that is why when it first came out it was a bit more expensive.
There is nothing illegal with what Deadly is doing either, there is nothing Warlock can do to stop anyone from posting the scripts either. They are not copywritten, so theres really nothing he can do except complain.


QUOTE(Jack @ Aug 16 2007, 11:29 PM) *

I didn't pay to use beta...

smile.gif me neither.

This post has been edited by riffruff: Aug 16 2007, 09:52 PM


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Eric
post Aug 16 2007, 09:40 PM
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It's against copyright law to create and/or sell derivative works without the expressed permission of the copyright holder.
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dyetryin
post Aug 16 2007, 09:44 PM
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Well, i might be intrested in buying some of them (reasonable prices)

So Jack and Warlock msg me about the details of them

k thx

-Dye-
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riffruff
post Aug 16 2007, 09:48 PM
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QUOTE(Eric @ Aug 16 2007, 11:40 PM) *

The work exists under a de facto copyright as soon as the author creates it, providing that "it" is an original creation.

Do you honestly think that Warlock is going to go through all the trouble to do this?

It's really not worth it, and he is charging for his time for programming. He is not charging for the script, he is charging for the programming time. That is how he puts it.

Also, some of his scripts have been posted on this board before...I believe J3m had accidentally posted a few of them.


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ALL men see in only 16 colors, like Windows default settings. Peach, for example, is a fruit, not a color. Pumpkin is also a fruit. We have no idea what mauve is.

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Women, learn to work the toilet seat. You're a big girl. If it's up, put it down. We need it up, you need it down. You don't hear us complaining about you leaving it down.

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Eric
post Aug 16 2007, 09:56 PM
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QUOTE(riffruff @ Aug 16 2007, 08:48 PM) *

QUOTE(Eric @ Aug 16 2007, 11:40 PM) *

The work exists under a de facto copyright as soon as the author creates it, providing that "it" is an original creation.

Do you honestly think that Warlock is going to go through all the trouble to do this?

QUOTE
The work exists under a de facto copyright as soon as the author creates it, providing that "it" is an original creation.

Though, given that such a script is a derivative work, I'm unsure if such a project is capable of being copyrighted.
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AngelicKing
post Aug 16 2007, 10:10 PM
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QUOTE(riffruff @ Aug 16 2007, 10:39 PM) *

QUOTE(AngelicKing @ Aug 16 2007, 08:40 PM) *

I don't agree with Warlock's idea about selling his package, but I gotta ask is this legal?

-King-


Actually, I agree with his idea, and I was planning to do something exactly the same with a few scripts that I'm making the final touches on. Put it this way. Warlock spent hours and hours making these scripts. What is wrong with him charging for them, and not charging much at that!! If you think Warlocks plugins should be free, it's like saying the Starcraft should be free. Warlock is spending hours making plugins, it spend Blizzard hours to make Starcraft, why sell Starcraft and not sell the plugins? Although Starcraft took longer, perhaps that is why when it first came out it was a bit more expensive.
There is nothing illegal with what Deadly is doing either, there is nothing Warlock can do to stop anyone from posting the scripts either. They are not copywritten, so theres really nothing he can do except complain.


QUOTE(Jack @ Aug 16 2007, 11:29 PM) *

I didn't pay to use beta...

smile.gif me neither.

I really think your comparing apples to oranges here. Starcraft is a game that took a team of professionals hours to make, plugins (which is what we are really talking about here) are pieces of code that are designed to help clans or hobby groups play on battle.net. This is a scripting community which provides free support, stealth must intended it that way judging by how the forums are setup, which is why I don't agree with the idea.

@define: All my code is written and rewritten to the best of my ability. If I find a better way of coding a section of code I will rewrite it. On that note all the scripts I have released work as intended.

-King-


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riffruff
post Aug 16 2007, 10:28 PM
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QUOTE
This is a scripting community which provides free support, stealth must intended it that way judging by how the forums are setup, which is why I don't agree with the idea.

How else could Stealth have set it up?

Then again, Stealth tries to distant himself from the scripting community. I think it's sufficent proof to say his last post in the plugins section was 5 months ago. I don't think he cares much for what we do -- but if we need something that he hasn't given us, he'll provide it (as he did with the new beta with creating menus)


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ALL men see in only 16 colors, like Windows default settings. Peach, for example, is a fruit, not a color. Pumpkin is also a fruit. We have no idea what mauve is.

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Women, learn to work the toilet seat. You're a big girl. If it's up, put it down. We need it up, you need it down. You don't hear us complaining about you leaving it down.

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AngelicKing
post Aug 16 2007, 10:42 PM
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Well he could have made people pay for access into the plugin support or technical area, just like he is doing for the beta forum. But doing so wouldn't make much sense would it?

-King-


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raylu
post Aug 16 2007, 11:06 PM
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His plugins are his creation and he is allowed to charge for them.

If you don't like it, there's basically nothing you can do about it. After all, you should do nothing (don't pay him) if you don't like it.

I don't think rewriting the scripts counts as a derivative work. As long as he codes it from scratch, it'd be the same as Gnu.


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Eric
post Aug 16 2007, 11:15 PM
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QUOTE(raylu @ Aug 16 2007, 10:06 PM) *

His plugins are his creation and he is allowed to charge for them.

If you don't like it, there's basically nothing you can do about it. After all, you should do nothing (don't pay him) if you don't like it.

I don't think rewriting the scripts counts as a derivative work. As long as he codes it from scratch, it'd be the same as Gnu.

I was referring to the original script.
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#define
post Aug 16 2007, 11:20 PM
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QUOTE
I really think your comparing apples to oranges here. Starcraft is a game that took a team of professionals hours to make, plugins (which is what we are really talking about here) are pieces of code that are designed to help clans or hobby groups play on battle.net. This is a scripting community which provides free support, stealth must intended it that way judging by how the forums are setup, which is why I don't agree with the idea.

@define: All my code is written and rewritten to the best of my ability. If I find a better way of coding a section of code I will rewrite it. On that note all the scripts I have released work as intended.

-King-

Who says warlock isn't a professional? He is a software engineer, that by my definition is a professional. Also, Blizzard is making millions on games, and their programmers are compensated pretty well for it. A person selling scripts on battle.net is making what... hundreds, they are not compensated nearly as well for their time.
The fact they help "hobby groups" on battle.net is a moot point, that same "hobby group" paid for blizzard's work when they bought the game. If it is just a hobby to you and you don't take wc3 seriously, a package of plugins that cost money are not for you.
Also you are comparing apples to oranges when you say this is a scripting community that provides free tech support as if that has any relevance to someone charging for their collection of scripts. Last I checked, Warlock was banned from this "free scripting community", why should he provide his work to a community he can't even be associated with in the first place?

@Angel
Make no mistake, I wasn't questioning the quality of your code at all. Even if it is flawless, my point was that most of the time you put into it (you said hundreds of hours) was probably spent learning the language, trying things out, etc because you were not a programmer before you starting this right? A programmer's hundreds of hours would cover a lot more ground then someone dabbling with vbscript, that is all I'm saying.


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FrOzeN
post Aug 16 2007, 11:29 PM
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Being that Visual Basic Scripting is very simple, I'd say even $10 per hour for a professional coder is a lot. Writing something in C++ is much more difficult and therefore being paid more is only reasonable.

You don't give a professional bathroom cleaner the same wage that a professional architect gets per hour of work.


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post Aug 16 2007, 11:36 PM
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QUOTE(FrOzeN @ Aug 16 2007, 11:29 PM) *

Being that Visual Basic Scripting is very simple, I'd say even $10 per hour for a professional coder is a lot. Writing something in C++ is much more difficult and therefore being paid more is only reasonable.

You don't give a professional bathroom cleaner the same wage that a professional architect gets per hour of work.

And I'm sure his hourly wage (like I said before) is less then 3 dollars per hour. How many people do you actually think buy it? It isn't like they sell in mass quantities. Time is money even if it is in a simple language. I agree though, I would much rather do tasks that don't make my head hurt at the end of day and still get paid.

@bathroom cleaner
Professional is thrown around too much. I consider someone a professional that has a degree in their field. A maid who has cleaned houses for 10 years is not a professional in my book. A CPA that just completed his certification test and passed is considered a professional. Their pay scales reflect the work they do. A professional lawyer earns a lot more money then a CPA (usually) because of work/stress involved.
Anyway, I went off on a tangeant there... sorry


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Ferre7 is no longer a big idiot
post Aug 17 2007, 01:01 AM
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just write the scripts, get an "RSL" and a warrant/patent for them. then sue Warlock for ''copying'' you.

IDK if this is legal, but what happens if you give another user, or a community, one of those scripts?
He never told me that would be bad (we go wayyyy back)


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DeadlyWorkz
post Aug 17 2007, 01:03 AM
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QUOTE(Ferre7 is Idiot! @ Aug 17 2007, 12:01 AM) *

just write the scripts, get an "RSL" and a warrant/patent for them. then sue Warlock for ''copying'' you.

IDK if this is legal, but what happens if you give another user, or a community, one of those scripts?
He never told me that would be bad (we go wayyyy back)

Wouldn't that be ironic. tongue.gif
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AngelicKing
post Aug 17 2007, 01:54 AM
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QUOTE(#define @ Aug 17 2007, 12:20 AM) *

Who says warlock isn't a professional? He is a software engineer, that by my definition is a professional. Also, Blizzard is making millions on games, and their programmers are compensated pretty well for it. A person selling scripts on battle.net is making what... hundreds, they are not compensated nearly as well for their time.
The fact they help "hobby groups" on battle.net is a moot point, that same "hobby group" paid for blizzard's work when they bought the game. If it is just a hobby to you and you don't take wc3 seriously, a package of plugins that cost money are not for you.
Also you are comparing apples to oranges when you say this is a scripting community that provides free tech support as if that has any relevance to someone charging for their collection of scripts. Last I checked, Warlock was banned from this "free scripting community", why should he provide his work to a community he can't even be associated with in the first place?

@Angel
Make no mistake, I wasn't questioning the quality of your code at all. Even if it is flawless, my point was that most of the time you put into it (you said hundreds of hours) was probably spent learning the language, trying things out, etc because you were not a programmer before you starting this right? A programmer's hundreds of hours would cover a lot more ground then someone dabbling with vbscript, that is all I'm saying.

Your absolutely right, this is a hobby of mine and thus is one of the reasons for my thinking. Again you hit it on the head when you say that VBs is my first language, excluding HTML cause I don't consider it a language, but I cannot agree with this:
QUOTE
Also you are comparing apples to oranges when you say this is a scripting community that provides free tech support as if that has any relevance to someone charging for their collection of scripts. Last I checked, Warlock was banned from this "free scripting community", why should he provide his work to a community he can't even be associated with in the first place?
I've read many a time when this was referred to as the scripting community for stealthbot. The community as a whole does not charge for these services because for the vast majority this is a hobby. He charged for his plugins before he was banned from the community.

Also I never once meant to denounce Warlocks coding abilities, after all he is a C++ programmer. But your trying to tell me that Warlock didn't write his code for fun (because WC was a hobby of his) and to learn VBs?

I apologize for any grammer, spelling, or portions of sentances that may not make sense, it is 3:00 AM right now so its kinda late.

-King-


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riffruff
post Aug 17 2007, 07:06 AM
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QUOTE(Ferre7 is Idiot! @ Aug 17 2007, 03:01 AM) *

just write the scripts, get an "RSL" and a warrant/patent for them. then sue Warlock for ''copying'' you.

IDK if this is legal, but what happens if you give another user, or a community, one of those scripts?
He never told me that would be bad (we go wayyyy back)

Why the hell would anyone do that, even if they could get away with it?


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What you should tell your girlfriend...
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ALL men see in only 16 colors, like Windows default settings. Peach, for example, is a fruit, not a color. Pumpkin is also a fruit. We have no idea what mauve is.

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Women, learn to work the toilet seat. You're a big girl. If it's up, put it down. We need it up, you need it down. You don't hear us complaining about you leaving it down.

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post Aug 17 2007, 08:36 AM
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Yeah, HTML isn't a programming language at all.

QUOTE
I've read many a time when this was referred to as the scripting community for stealthbot. The community as a whole does not charge for these services because for the vast majority this is a hobby. He charged for his plugins before he was banned from the community.

Also I never once meant to denounce Warlocks coding abilities, after all he is a C++ programmer. But your trying to tell me that Warlock didn't write his code for fun (because WC was a hobby of his) and to learn VBs?

I apologize for any grammer, spelling, or portions of sentances that may not make sense, it is 3:00 AM right now so its kinda late.

So because SB.net is a scripting community and someone wrote a lot of plugins for Stealthbot itself, by the transitive property of morals he isn't supposed to charge for his work? I don't see where you're going with this. I would agree that someone advertising and trying to sell them on this forum would be wrong, but other than that no.
Even if he wrote them for fun that makes no difference. My grandpa makes animals out of wood stumps with carving tools. He loves it and he does it for fun and a hobby, but he also sells his work to people. Does that make him an asshole, I mean after all it is a hobby of his, they should be free right?

@Everyone
You cannot copyright a script or patent a script.

This post has been edited by #define: Aug 17 2007, 08:37 AM


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riffruff
post Aug 17 2007, 08:42 AM
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Define...I agree with you smile.gif

I guess thats sort of what I was trying to get at...just didn't know how to say it.

This post has been edited by riffruff: Aug 17 2007, 08:42 AM


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What you should tell your girlfriend...
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ALL men see in only 16 colors, like Windows default settings. Peach, for example, is a fruit, not a color. Pumpkin is also a fruit. We have no idea what mauve is.

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Women, learn to work the toilet seat. You're a big girl. If it's up, put it down. We need it up, you need it down. You don't hear us complaining about you leaving it down.

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DeadlyWorkz
post Aug 17 2007, 09:09 AM
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QUOTE(#define @ Aug 17 2007, 07:36 AM) *

@Everyone
You cannot copyright a script or patent a script.

And why is that? From what I understand the moment anything is created it is under copyright protection.
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AngelicKing
post Aug 17 2007, 11:53 AM
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QUOTE(define)
Even if he wrote them for fun that makes no difference. My grandpa makes animals out of wood stumps with carving tools. He loves it and he does it for fun and a hobby, but he also sells his work to people. Does that make him an asshole, I mean after all it is a hobby of his, they should be free right?
You brought up your grandfather, no fair. I never once called him an asshole for it, I just strongly disagree with the idea/practice. Any who I'm not getting through to you as I had expected from previous posts where your defiant on your stand on a situation, so I am going to agree to disagree.

-King-


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post Aug 17 2007, 12:13 PM
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QUOTE(DeadlyWorkz @ Aug 17 2007, 09:09 AM) *

QUOTE(#define @ Aug 17 2007, 07:36 AM) *

@Everyone
You cannot copyright a script or patent a script.

And why is that? From what I understand the moment anything is created it is under copyright protection.

I'm more talking about how difficult it is to pursue anything when it comes to code, especially simple scripts. Code is a very hairy area when it comes to rights of ownership, whereas physical objects are very easy to copyright and pursue. An actual application would be easier to copyright (like for example stealthbot itself), but scripts are not.
QUOTE
"Conversely, if plaintiff independently creates software that is functionally identical to other software, he does not infringe any copyright on the other software's source code, even if his independently created source code is nearly identical to the copyrighted source code."

If someone writes a weather plugin for example, and I basically copy/paste his work and change variable names... it would be almost impossible to make a case out of it.
Now if you steal software from a larger company, yes you will most likely be taken to court and lose.

@Angel
Fair enough, I'm still interested with what idea/practice you disagree with. It sounds to me like if someone is doing something he enjoys as a hobby, he shouldn't be making any money off of the work he did. Do you agree with that? Many people love their jobs, and love going to work everyday. Should these people not get paid? Your job can also be a hobby, and work you do in your free time can also be a hobby. There is absolutely nothing wrong with charging people a small fee to enjoy work you created, whether it was a hobby to you or not.
I'm not trying to argue with you, just trying to make you understand that there is nothing wrong with being compensated for your time.

This post has been edited by #define: Aug 17 2007, 12:16 PM


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AngelicKing
post Aug 17 2007, 12:37 PM
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QUOTE(define)
Fair enough, I'm still interested with what idea/practice you disagree with. It sounds to me like if someone is doing something he enjoys as a hobby, he shouldn't be making any money off of the work he did. Do you agree with that? Many people love their jobs, and love going to work everyday. Should these people not get paid? Your job can also be a hobby, and work you do in your free time can also be a hobby. There is absolutely nothing wrong with charging people a small fee to enjoy work you created, whether it was a hobby to you or not.
I'm not trying to argue with you, just trying to make you understand that there is nothing wrong with being compensated for your time.


At some point I allowed myself to start generalizing this discussion and its where my point started losing its value. I don't agree with Warlock's stand on selling plugins, thats what I'm getting at. Obviously I'm not the only one because that was the original intent of this topic anyways. I'm not saying its not his right to choose to sell his plugins, I'm saying that all this forum is a conglomerate of gamers try to have fun with possibly a new language that you haven't heard of before, and as such why wouldn't we all wanna pitch in our ideas and views on a language such as VBs? This is what makes stealthbot what it is, the vast majority of the ppl don't use it for the bot itself, they use it becuase of its plugin system and its scripting community.

Again I must apologize for my haste and if things don't make sense I'll be back Monday to straighten them out.

-King-


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